[Mushroom]

Starting with "Lord Of The Flies" by William Golding.
A valid analysis of Human behaviour when outside of proscribed social norms?
Or, the author's analysis, biased by his own experience and education?

[abcott]

Mushroom, on Mar 9 2010, 10:26 PM, said:

Starting with "Lord Of The Flies" by William Golding.
A valid analysis of Human behaviour when outside of proscribed social norms?
Or, the author's analysis, biased by his own experience and education?

I have always thought it was the former, though "valid" is open to discussion.

Any particular reason you think it might be the latter? I'm not aware of him experiencing anything like the events of the book.

[Mushroom]

abcott, on Mar 9 2010, 11:58 PM, said:

I have always thought it was the former, though "valid" is open to discussion.

Any particular reason you think it might be the latter? I'm not aware of him experiencing anything like the events of the book.

Thing is, when we discuss any work of literature, we should be aware of the influences upon the author.
That would be to consider their life experiences, the time of their writing, the state of history, especially in terms of the nature of thought, up to their time.
It is valid to reconsider any author with later knowledge or belief.
Although we can decide to acknowledge that, for that particular point in time, that author had something worthwhile to say.
It's what some call deconstruction.
However, it can explain why authors once praised, seem to drop off the radar.

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

abcott, on Mar 9 2010, 11:58 PM, said:

I have always thought it was the former, though "valid" is open to discussion.

Any particular reason you think it might be the latter? I'm not aware of him experiencing anything like the events of the book.

Living through WW2 may have coloured his
opinion:

Quote

War service

During World War II, Golding fought in the Royal Navy and was briefly involved in the pursuit and sinking of Germany's mightiest battleship, the Bismarck. He also participated in the invasion of Normandy on D-Day, commanding a landing ship that fired salvoes of rockets onto the beaches, and then in a naval action at Walcheren in which 23 out of 24 assault craft were sunk.[5] At the war's end he returned to teaching and writing.[2]

That being said, this particular book is responsible for a large part of my loathing of literary analysis.
It always struck me as a rather clumsily contrived allegory (even though I agree with the sentiment
about human nature).
We were encouraged to 'find' the accepted interpretation, and select
quotes to support it in order to get the grades for English Lit.

Alternate or original interpretations were unwelcome...

ABB

P.S. The loathing was rounded out by forced interpretation of Huckleberry Finn,
St Joan and Macbeth - though that latter was the most interesting, enlightening
and entertaining, not least due to its pro-Stuart propaganda content.

[abcott]

Mushroom, on Mar 10 2010, 12:19 AM, said:

Thing is, when we discuss any work of literature, we should be aware of the influences upon the author.
That would be to consider their life experiences, the time of their writing, the state of history, especially in terms of the nature of thought, up to their time.
It is valid to reconsider any author with later knowledge or belief.
Although we can decide to acknowledge that, for that particular point in time, that author had something worthwhile to say.
It's what some call deconstruction.
However, it can explain why authors once praised, seem to drop off the radar.

you're not wrong.

so, specifically with this one?

[Mushroom]

abcott, on Mar 10 2010, 12:44 AM, said:

you're not wrong.

so, specifically with this one?

The Public School male orientation.
Even though the author lived through WW11, where women showed how capable they are.
That though, might tell us why this novel has been praised.
As a comment upon our society.
Has anyone ever asked why Golding only had males as his subjects?
Does that mean he believed only males were of any consequence in the outcome of Human society?
If so, is he right?

[Mushroom]

AgeingBabyBoomer, on Mar 10 2010, 12:43 AM, said:

Living through WW2 may have coloured his
opinion:



That being said, this particular book is responsible for a large part of my loathing of literary analysis.
It always struck me as a rather clumsily contrived allegory (even though I agree with the sentiment
about human nature).
We were encouraged to 'find' the accepted interpretation, and select
quotes to support it in order to get the grades for English Lit.

Alternate or original interpretations were unwelcome...

ABB

P.S. The loathing was rounded out by forced interpretation of Huckleberry Finn,
St Joan and Macbeth - though that latter was the most interesting, enlightening
and entertaining, not least due to its pro-Stuart propaganda content.

You had crap English teachers.
Or, at least, ones who didn't fully explain "to pass the test".
That position changing with time, of course.
The only value of literary analysis is that one should provide one's own point of view, backed up by reference to the text.
Together with your interpretation based upon your position in time and knowledge as opposed to the author of the work you are considering.
Then, no interpretation can be considered of no relevance.
It's how literature is tested.
By every reader, most of whom never publish their thoughts upon that read.

[magpie]

Lord of the Flies I always thought was a bit boring and sanctimonious. Not half as effectively creepy as High Wind in Jamaica (which also has the advantage of a little girl going a bit "savage" in it). And not as funny as something like "Lost" - maybe it needed a few more polar bears or smoke monsters.

[abcott]

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since i read it.
My memory is that;-
a) left to their own devices children become savages, or victims of savages.
a pair of glasses won't last long in those circumstances.
c) the scene where they find the pilots body was very hard to understand.

All seems a bit 2 dimensional, but I'd guess there is more to it than that. Do let us know Mushroom when you re-read it.

[Mushroom]

abcott, on Mar 10 2010, 03:08 PM, said:

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since i read it.
My memory is that;-
a) left to their own devices children become savages, or victims of savages.
a pair of glasses won't last long in those circumstances.
c) the scene where they find the pilots body was very hard to understand.

All seems a bit 2 dimensional, but I'd guess there is more to it than that. Do let us know Mushroom when you re-read it.

Well, my bookshelves have not thrown up this text.
So, I'll have to venture to the local Library.
Hmm, today's climate, dare I, an older male, ask to borrow this?
Would a writer, today, write this, or a director film this?
A text studied, aeons ago, at my Grammar School and later in my Teacher training.

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

Ahem

Probably on Amazon...
ABB

[Worried Mother]

Mushroom, on Mar 19 2010, 10:31 PM, said:

Hmm, today's climate, dare I, an older male, ask to borrow this?

What a dreadful state we have got into that this kind of thought even crosses your mind.

[Mushroom]

Worried Mother, on Mar 20 2010, 02:42 PM, said:

What a dreadful state we have got into that this kind of thought even crosses your mind.

Indeed, what price art and any objective consideration of it?
Outside of official interpretation.
That's how all "fascist" States function.
Those States might claim to be of the Left or the Right, the result is the same.
Conform to the official thoughts.
On pain of sanction.

Eta, I'll probably ask Mrs. Mushroom to borrow this from the Library.
She looks like a responsible member of society.

[Mushroom]

Right, now have a copy of this book.
I'll have to try to approach it from a non previously prejudiced view.
Sod those Eng Lit lecturers.

[geneer]

Mushroom, on Mar 9 2010, 11:26 PM, said:

Starting with "Lord Of The Flies" by William Golding.
A valid analysis of Human behaviour when outside of proscribed social norms?
Or, the author's analysis, biased by his own experience and education?

Funny. I bought this the other day.
Don't remember reading it at School, but thought it sounded like my cup of tea.